Dona Joana (Indian midwife) 1976
- What is your name?
- Joana.
- Dona Joana. For how many years have you been midwife?
- For twenty-three years.
- Did you have all the women give birth squatting down?
- All of them. I was telling the other women that I have eight children, too. Two I had with other midwives helping me. But it was no good. I sent them away, go away to your houses, because your work is no good, I said. Then I squatted down, and I said: I don't need a midwife. After that I had eight children all by myself. My doors were always locked. One time I squatted down near the bed, I grabbed the side of the bed and the bed turned over, on me, from all the effort I made. And I had that big belly, who would take the mattress off of me, whom would I ask for help? I had to do everything by myself but, thank God, I always gave birth very well. And I had told the midwives to go away...
- And have you helped other women to give birth, women that the other midwives would help too?
- When I went outside the area of my nation. And they gave birth lying down, but the labor was harder, much more difficult.
- And in your nation they always gave birth squatting down...
- All of them squatting down, and thank God, they all went well, I never took a woman to the hospital, from here.
- But tell me something: why did you think it was worse to help white women give birth?
- Well, because the woman makes twice the effort lying down.
- You think so?
- Yes, lying down it is harder to make an effort.
- In a squatting position is it better?
- Yes, the child gets into a better position, and the women never had hemorrhage, either.
- How many deliveries have you helped?
- I don't know! These people that you see here, most of them, were born through my hands...
- How many to you suppose they are? Two hundred?
- I think more...
- How many?
- We have the white women too... then I have worked outside this area too... and I helped all in the same way.
- Did they do it in a squatting position?
- No.
- How did they do it? Can you explain it, because we are doing it in a squatting position too, in the city?
- Ah, but will they let you do it?
- Oh, they will, I have photos, I will show you. How do you do it? Does the woman squat only when it's time for the baby to be born?
- First we examine her to see if it is time. When it is time I tell her to squat down. Not before.
- It's not necessary?
- No. We examine her, from time to time.
- And the examination, how is it? You put a finger inside?
- Yes.
- You see if the head is there?
- Yes. When the little head is close, then I tell her to squat down. It comes fast as a bullet. Ask that daughter of mine over there. How many babies. And all her children were born in my hands. Only the last was born in hospital.
- Tell me one thing, if she squats down, is it bad?
- Yes, she makes too much effort. Its time lost, she makes an unnecessary effort.
- And before the baby is born, do you let her walk around?
- Yes, before, it is good for her to walk.
- The more she walks, the better she is?
- It is better. When she stops, she feels tied up, she gets nervous. Feeling that pain, shouldn’t she get nervous? Then we have to put her at ease. Only sometimes, when it is cold... when she hasn't started to sweat yet, I don't let her make too much effort. When she starts to sweat, it is time.
- How is that? The sweating?
- Yes, they feel hot, all women do. Every now and then I put my hands on their head. When the woman is sweating it is time. And I don't even have to put my hands anymore on them.
- You know, just from the look of them?
- Yes.
- And the water, when does it break?
- Women are not all the same, there are women whose water breaks and it still takes sometime for the baby to be born. Some women take one hour, more than one hour, then the pains come strongly, the birth is dryer... Not pressuring them, when the water break, the child is born.
- Is it better?
- Yes, the woman suffers less.
- There are cases in which it breaks one day or two before...
- Yes, it happens...
- Is it worse?
- It's dry.
- In general, how long does it take for a woman to give birth for the first time?
- The first time? Around three hours...
- From the start of the pain until the end?
- Nowadays one cannot tell, some people start to get ill at night, continue until the next night...
- Why do you think it's like that?
- I don't know why. Before it was not like that; today the women suffer more! I don't know if they have lost their courage.
- Do you think it's because they spend so much time seated?
- I think so.
- Before, how did they sit? On the old times, how did they sit?
- The old-timers gave birth more easily, now it is harder!
- Did they sit on chairs? Or squatted down?
- They always squatted down, on the floor.
- Do you think that's why it was easier?
- Yes, I think that's why.
***
- One day I had this cousin that became ill. That was in the morning, her husband came to tell me that his wife was ill, about to give birth. I went there, examined her, and saw it would still take one hour. Then she said to me: "you know, cousin, I don't have any pain, I know the baby is not coming today.” It can't be so, I told her. "I know I am not giving birth today", she said. "I am going to have a look at my crops". Then I let her go. And I kept looking for her, to see what she was going to do. She said she was going to gather some green beans. I kept looking out for her. She didn't take long, soon she was coming back. This rice plantation was full of water. She came bringing something inside her dress, and I thought: "she is bringing beans". I went out to meet her, and asked, "did you bring a lot of beans?" "Have a look at my beans", she said. And there was a baby inside her clothes! Then I took her to the house, passing through all that water. We came into the house, I cut the umbilical cord of the baby, put her in bed and went to the woods to gather herbs, so that she wouldn't relapse! And she didn't relapse! It seems she is having babies until now!
- Another thing: do you cut the umbilical cord after the "companion"(placenta) is out?1
- Yes, after.
- It doesn't matter how long it takes to get out?
- It is no good to leave it inside. It has to come out free, and then we cut the cord. Sometimes it escapes, but I never let it escape. First I make sure everything came out, then I cut.
- You never had a case when a part of it stood inside?
- No, never, never. I always look carefully, to see if there is no piece still inside.
- But if you cut before, what happens?
- Nothing happens, but you have to tie that remaining part with a string and leave it there. But it never happened to me. When the baby is born I already have some tea to give the mother. When it is taking too long, I give her a warm tea, then I put my finger there, and I pull it down. It comes out fast as a bullet, too.
- You put your finger on the belly?
- Yes, we have a small bone here, see?
- Yes.
- It is pressed against that small bone. I put my finger here and push it down and here it comes.
- Where did you learn that?
- I learned that with my deceased mother. I came to live here when I married my old man, and my mother was already old, old enough, and one day, late at night, people came to fetch her, and she said:
- If they come for me again you will go with me; you will be the midwife of our nation. I went with her, to see that delivery, and she said, "look Joana, that's how we do it". And my mother died, always helping the women give birth, and nothing ever went wrong. You go now, she said, because I am too old to go walking around at night.
- You walked a lot at night?
- Yes. Once the State authorities lent me to the "Ligeiro", I was there for two years. We had six, seven child births per night, and nobody helped me, because nobody knew how to do it... I did it all by myself. I had a whole lot of work. When I came back I was very happy. Because at that place, it is a big area, with many people, and here it is small, there is one birth a month, sometimes two a month.... It is easier to help them.
- You got wages for helping with the child births?
- I worked for twelve years without wages, without earning anything. Then I complained to the government and they started paying me, now I am a public servant. When I worked here, I was a state servant, now I work for the FUNAI.
- And have you ever heard about any woman that died in childbirth, here on the woods?
- No, never.
- Is it very hard for that to happen?
- Nobody ever saw the women giving birth to their children. They just came with the babies on their dresses. That is what my mother told me, but she never told me that any of them ever died in childbirth.
- And the babies, did any of them die during birth?
- No.
- And when it was the wrong time for them to be born?
- I never had any miscarriages. There was no child born before the right time.
- And the medications? The people from the cities use a lot of medications, for low blood pressure, for high blood pressure, we also know the "concorosa" and other things...
- That is not for birth labor....
- Is it for a wound?
- Yes, for a nasty wound. And there are other mixtures, other medications, not only that one.
- But how do you use the medications? Before labor, during it, or after?
- You have to use it before, when there is still two or three months, you use that medication, you have a good labor.
- You make it with what?
- With herbs from the forest.
- Artemisia?
- No, not from home, from the forest. Only from the forest.
- Any plant, or a special one?
- It has to be a special one, not just any one.
- The old-timers know that, but do the younger?
- To avoid the relapse I give them bark from the forest. I give a small tea for the woman when she relapses, but it makes her sweat!
- And if you don't use the plants, what happens, does it get worse?
- Yes, but there are some people that....
- do it without the plants?
- Yes...
- That doesn't mean anything. You give more, when it gets worse?
- Yes.
- So you never got cases of placenta retention?
- Never, never. Thank God, and I never had hemorrhage. When I was with Dona Guilhermina there was a woman that got ill as if she were ready to have a baby and the baby wouldn't be born, so I said, this is a case for the doctor, it's not for me. We took her [to the hospital] and I saw the delivery of the baby, they had to cut her, then the baby was born. But she started to bleed, a hemorrhage that wouldn't stop. I think if we hadn't taken her to the hospital she would have died. At the small health post here we don't have resources to help her. They kept trying, this and that... and they were able to save her.
- And why was this childbirth that way?
- I think she made too much effort.
- So when it takes too long something is wrong?
- Yes, that is not such a good thing.
- Two or three days...
- Yes.
***
- Once in Ronda Alta, which is outside my area, a man came early morning to fetch me, they had sent notice already, I was waiting for him and I went there. I examined the woman and I said: this is a case for the doctor, you better take her to a doctor and very fast, and they took her and she died.
- What did she have?
- High blood pressure. It attacked her head before the baby was born.
- What did she have? Convulsions?
- Yes.
- And where did you learn about high blood pressure? Just from looking?
- No...
- And was the baby born?
- No. She died before the baby was born.
***
- Tell me something: when the baby's "companion", the placenta, doesn't get out by itself, is it necessary to do something?
- We have to help it, because it doesn't get out by itself...
- What do you do?
- I told you already.
- You just press with your finger there?
- Yes, but you must give the woman something warm to drink, a warm tea. When the child is about to be born, I put the medication to warm over the stove.
- And what medication do you give?
- Three bark from the forest.
- But at the city we have seen the placenta come out by itself, with no problems. Without having to do anything.
- Ah, yes, but I am afraid of that, God help me, if a piece of it escapes, it can kill the woman!
- If a piece doesn't come out?
- Yes, it can kill, if it stays there. It goes under the stomach, it goes under the heart, it causes a great harm, you have to have great care.
- You always do that with your finger there?
- Yes, always. Some of them come out with the baby, and you don't have to do anything. It is just for some of them that it happens.
- It is not all of them? Ten minutes more and it comes?
- Yes.
- So in three hours the child is born?
- Yes.
- It doesn't take more than that?
- No.
- And women that have more children, is it faster?
- Yes. But nowadays, I don't understand how these women have six children and must have a caesarian, how is it possible?
- It is hard to believe...
- I think they want the woman to stay there at the hospital. How is it possible that every woman that goes to the hospital HAS to do a caesarian? It is very strange... I don't even know how to say it...
- I think so, too. In one hundred women, only six need to get a caesarian.
- Not even six.
- And the baby is born without problems?
- That is the way it is.
***
- "Comadre" (one's baby's godmother), you remember your last son? Were you going to the doctors? Were you always at the doctor? Then she got ill. And the doctors said she shouldn't have the baby at home or she could die. One day I came here during a walk and I had a look, but I knew what they said, it is better for her to go the hospital, she is my "comadre". I said, I will see her. But if she has time to go to the hospital it is better that she goes. But when I examined her it was already time, there was no time for her to go, if she went she was going to have the baby on the road. Then I helped her. The doctors said she was going to die, but you can see her, how she is right there! And me too, the doctor said I was going to die, I was very ill and always went to the doctors, but not of my own will, my old man worried about me. The doctors scared us. I was about to have the baby. Then I said, old man, let's sell two pairs of oxen so that we can pay the hospital. We agreed on that, we sold them, we sold more things to have money for the doctors. One day I woke up at dawn and thought: is it true what the doctor says, that I am going to die? I was thinking and I felt that big pain, and I said: "There! I am going to be ill!". My old man woke up too. At that time, he was part of a football team that played at many places. He had a truck to take the team to the games. He woke up, put his arm around me and said: I hope you are not going to be ill today... I said not, God forbid! Because, he told me, I am going to a tournament today. I said, my old man, you can go, why not? When I feel ill I will go to the hospital. He agreed, called his friends and they went away. And I was feeling the pains. But I was not lucky. It took me until night. He went at eight in the morning, and when I saw, it was already half past seven and I was still like that. I had strong pains, but I walked from here to there. The truck came back and I was very ill. He came to the kitchen and didn't find me, went to the sitting room and didn't find me, where is your mother, he asked the children? She is around. When I saw he was coming, I went away, I said I was going for a short walk, and the baby came at half past eight.
- It took eleven hours, took time!
- I took time. I thought the child would come before he came back, that is why I didn't want to tell him that I was ill. I wanted to save that money. When the girl was born and she came home with me, everything was fine, and I said: give me the doctor's money, I want to have everything of the best, since I saved that money!
- Why do you think the doctors do so many caesarian operations?
- I think they want to make more money, because the woman has to stay longer at the hospital, and if we have the child the normal way, next day we are fine and can go back to work.
- You think so?
- Yes, it is not good for the woman, it seems they don't have the courage to make effort... they shouldn’t let them cut them...
- Tell me something, why do you think white man's wives have the children lying down?
- Maybe they don't have the courage... Maybe they got used to do it that way... and who knows, maybe the old midwives invented2 that we didn't. And it's like that everywhere. I've been in Nonoai, I've been in Guariba, and everywhere it is like that. Sometimes I am there, a woman gets ill, they call me, they know I know about those things, they come fetch me. And I go there to help.
- You say: "when the woman gets ill"... you think childbirth is an illness? Is it really illness, or just a manner of speaking?
- Well, sometimes they have pain two or three days before, they have that pain, then it goes away, and it still takes three or four days yet.
- But in your language, Kaingang, how do you say it? I mean, when you are ill, about to die, it's one thing, but to have a child it's another thing. And in Kaingang, is it the same word for both?
- Yes, it's the same word. He says......(Kaingang word), and I know what he means.
- What does it mean?
- It means his wife is ill.
- But is it ill to have a baby, or any illness?
- It is any of both.
***
- There was this woman. Her house was there, in the shade, one morning her husband came to fetch me. He said: Look "comadre", your "comadre" is ill. But she had been pregnant for a short time, I knew it was not time for the baby to come. I said: it is not time yet, "compadre" (one's baby's godfather). And he said, I think so, too. I went to her house; she was not in bed. I went through the house and she was lying down under the trees, moaning. She had a lot of pain. I said: "comadre", if you are ill, why are you here? She said she was feeling very ill. But, I said, it is not to have a child. She said yes, it is. I made her lie down and felt the child, it was out of place, and I put it back in its right place, took her to bed and said, now lie down until tomorrow. I came home, took my kettle and my mate gourd and drank a mate, and when I saw her she was going to the river to wash her clothes. And she never had that pain again, not until it was time for her to have the baby.
- How did you put the baby in its right place?
- We have to examine, touch it.
- It has to have its head down?
- It can't be with its head down.
- Never?
- Never.
- Not even when it is going to be born?
- Only when it is going to be born. When it turns with the tummy down, we feel ill, its birth time.
- And before, how do you think the child is?
- I know how it is, but I am not going to tell you...
- Why not?
- I have a book, I have many books, I learn with them.
- Medicine books?
- Yes.
- You mean you studied childbirth in books?
- Yes, I didn't want to, but my old man helped me do it, explained what I had to do, it says we shouldn't restrain a woman when she is ready to have a baby. It says so in the book. It says she must be at ease. She can relax as she likes. And you have to let her.
***
- I used also to give medication for women that couldn't have children. I had a cousin who was 43 years old and had never had a child. I had a girl, she wanted that girl for herself, since she helped me raise all my kids. She said, "Cousin, I helped you with all your children, give me this one". I said "No, once I have finished my resting period I will do a treatment for you." "That's good", she said. After twenty days of rest I went to her house and told her to prepare herself, leave everything that was most urgent ready, because she would need to spend fifteen days in her room. I made her the medication and left her in her room. She went out on the 11th day, but next month she was already pregnant. And at 43 years of age, you know how the birth is? When it is a younger woman, it is easier, but old people have harder bones and this woman suffered, she was not lucky, she had a boy and she wanted a girl. My God that woman gave me some work! She called me names, said it was all my fault because she was suffering! But she had a normal delivery and I didn't need to take her to a doctor.
***
- I was telling the women here, when there were still woods, the people who lived here, sometimes it was raining God-sent rain, the cocks were crowing and people came to fetch me. We went, breaking the bamboo stems on our walk, I following a man on horseback. A midwife also faces dangers... Sometimes it is raining, it is freezing cold and we have to wake up and go help someone. Because we want to, right? Yes, because to the white people we don't have an obligation...
***
- One day a chief came here, José Esteves, maybe you know him...
- Only by name...
- He came very early to fetch me in his Jeep, Dona Joana, wake up, there is a woman ill, an Indian, she is going to have a baby. I went with him through a narrow road, he passed through the woods, and when we got there I examined the woman. She was ready to give birth, and she had twins! They are here, the twins, they are grown-ups now. It was very quick. When one was born, the other came right behind.
- And those births when the baby is sitting down?3
- Those are hard ones. I think they need a doctor. But I helped a woman, once. I examined her and I couldn't feel a head, and she had been ill for five days. I said, take this woman to the hospital, go to the hospital, and her husband didn't want to. I told the chief to come and get the woman because she was going to die. They came to get me, again, at night. I kept coming and going there. I examined her, I found a thing, something strange, it was not the child's head. I thought: "what is that?” I kept feeling for it and I grabbed a small foot. And we couldn't go to a hospital, what would I do? I thought: "be it as God wishes". I continued to try until I grabbed both little legs. I continued to strain, until the feet came outside. I put a towel on the feet, pulled them, helped put the arms up, slowly, the child came, a very big boy.
- And she was squatting down?
- She was squatting down.
- And isn't it dangerous to break the umbilical cord, that way?
- No, when he came, everything came together.
- And the head, didn't it get stuck inside?
- Yes, it got stuck. I told her to strain, and I helped. And look: he was born. I found only one like that. And twins, I found only once, too, that are those boys I told you about.
- And you know that at the city there are many children who are born dumb because of these problems at birth? It takes too long, the child doesn't breathe, it gets dumb. Do you have children like that here?
- No, not one.
- They are all healthy?
- Yes.
- And do many children die after birth?
- No. That hardly ever happens.
- They die when they are bigger, from diarrhea, air4, things like that?
- Yes, after they are bigger. But they hardly ever die here, thank God.
- And the positions to squat down? You sit on the "croque" (stool) or you just squat down? "Croque" is that little piece of wood you use to sit on, isn't it?
- Yes...
- You sit on it?
- Yes, you squat down, and there is this small, low bench, where the woman can sit when the pain passes.
- She sits on the "croque"?
- Yes.
- With her behind up?
- Yes.
- So that it won't touch the floor?
- Yes.
- And does she put the whole foot or just the tip of the foot on the floor?
- When the pains are really hard, she puts only her toes down. You think it's easy? You are a man, you don't know what it’s like...
- But I have seen it many times...
- You have seen it, but you have not felt the pain!
- No.
- Ha, ha, ha, ha!
- It seems that with the whole foot it gets firmer... but I tell you. There is no need to make the woman strain too much. I just put my hand on her head, when she starts sweating, the time has come. I keep waiting, if she wants to stay in bed, she can, I drink my mate and smoke a cigarette. From time to time I have a look at her. Dona Guilhermina learned with me, because she didn't know anything about it, she comes from the Ligeiro, you can ask her how many times I helped the women in childbirth there...
- And the women breast-feed the baby as soon as it is born?
- We, Indians, do it, because the child is born to be fed. We feed it soon. Nothing bad ever happened. When I took my daughter-in-law to the hospital they left my grand-son for 24 hours without feeding him!
- They almost starved him!
- They almost starved the boy. You know what they did? I took my daughter-in-law to the hospital. I saw she wasn't going to have the baby because she didn't have strength. And they examined her for a long time and didn't do anything. And I said "give her some serum, to give her more courage!" And they didn't do anything. Suddenly a doctor came in and I said: "if my daughter-in-law had strength, she would have the baby at home, but I brought her here so that you could give her some serum, and I tell the midwives here, but they don't do anything. What are you doing? Give some serum to this woman!". She didn't take half the serum; the child was born. "You see? "- the doctor told the midwife, "the Indian knows more about it than you do".
***
- So you always give the breast to the baby, as soon as it is born?
- Yes, always, always.
- But when the baby is a little bit purple?
- What do you mean?
- Have you ever seen a baby that takes long to cry?
- When the child is born like that, not crying, I get it by both little legs and slap it on the behind... slap it, until it cries! I have to slap that child! It has to cry, because if a child doesn't cry it keeps all that dirt in its stomach!
- But when it s born with the mother in a squatting position, it comes out with the head down, isn't it cleaned as soon as it's born?
- No, because there is the "companion". We have to turn its head to the side. We have to take care of the child's little mouth.
- Put is on its side?
- Yes.
- Never to one side nor...
- Yes, it is easier. It is born with the mouth down, how would it get dirt inside?
- That's why I am asking. If it is born with its mouth down, it is hard to get dirt inside, it is squeezed there.
- Yes.
- He doesn't breathe, he will breath when it is coming.
- Yes.
- There is no way to get dirty. And what if it gets dirt inside?
- How could it be? Lying down is much worse!
- Yes, we know what’s like, lying down.
- That's it...
- Lying down, what do you think happens?
- That dirt that comes with the baby gets over the child. Sometimes the woman has so much water... drowns the child... I have seen a delivery like that, before the child was born it was already washed, from so much water; it was as if somebody had throw a bucket of water on it! I've seen only one of those. I've seen one of each kind. But if there were no other women here I could tell you such stories! But there are pregnant women here...
- They get scared, don’t they?
- Yes.
- So you think the baby has to cry a lot?
- Yes, it has to cry.
- But why make it cry? It was just born and it has to be spanked?
- Ha! Ha! Ha! Yes, didn't it want to cry? You have to slap it! But those that want to cry a lot, I let them cry. It's good for them, makes the lungs strong. One day a baby was born. He was dead. Really dead. My mother said: Joãozinho Menezes, we both were midwives. So we went to see the delivery. The child was born dead, with the legs like this. And the woman was not very well either, or she was scared to see the child like that. But we slapped and slapped the child, and it wouldn’t come back to life. I left it on the bed until Dona Rosa came. She slapped it some more and that child came to life. And if we had left it, it wouldn't have lived, it had no breath.
***
- And the animals, how do they give birth? Do you ever see any animals?
- No, I have never seen them.
- You've never seen them? Not even monkeys?
- No, I've never been with them, ha, ha, ha!
- But with the legs up, only white man's women do it, isn't it?
- Yes, that's true.
***
- That happened after I came from Santa Rosa, we stayed five years there, then they brought us back, and I had the same work, to help women in childbirth. I had a nephew who lived on those mountains, he came and said, aunt, my wife is ill. I went with him and arrived very tired. When I got there the baby was born. His wife is a "cabocla". The baby was born, I cut its umbilical cord. But I saw things were not good. It was a girl, and she had only half of the head (whispering). She didn't have this part here. You could even see her brains...
- And why was that?
- Her brains were covered by a very thin little skin. The eyes, too, were not normal. My God, I helped the woman, wrapped the child and took it to the doctor.
- But was it born like that?
- It was born like that. We took her to the church, to be baptized, and I was the godmother. After baptizing I took her to the doctor. The doctor had a look and said, go back, Dona Joana, this child won't live even for a half hour. We went back. When we got home the child died. You know why? Because that woman had that wound inside, and it's never been cured, and that woman was always at the doctors, but the doctors couldn't kill that wound. That child was created on top of that wound, it didn't eat the mother but it ate the child. You listen to what I am saying. She was born like that, the ugliest thing, God pardon me. And she died. After that, in Ligeiro, another one was born like that, too. It was also the daughter of a niece of mine. The child was born and it was not human. I saw it wouldn't live. I cut the cord and wrapped it, and left it on the bed, and it died, the blood was finished, and it died.
- Was it really strange?
- Really strange! We midwives see such things! And that was seven years ago. After that happened I called the chief and showed it to him. You did well, he said, Dona Joana, he patted my shoulder, which mother would want to give her breast to such a child? And don't show the mother, he said. We didn't show her. I just told her that the child was not well and had died.
- Yes...
***
- And that illness, that illness that we are examining for, the cancer, the whites have it a lot.
- I lived outside this area, it's been only four months since I came back here. The white people, even from São Paulo, come to get medication at my home. When they didn’t know what to do anymore and had no more cure, they would come running to my house, I still saved some of them. And just with medications from the forest: roots, bark... There are lots of medications, thank God I never took a son of mine to the hospital, my children have never been to a doctor, when they get ill I know what to give them.
- And have you taught that to someone?
- Yes, many people.
- Your children?
- Yes, everything. Sometimes when I'm not here, someone comes asking for a medication, they do it all right. If someone has a wound inside, if he takes half a cup of medication, he gets a reaction, it seems he will die. But it is because the wound is burning from the medication. One day, I was not home, an old man came and told my daughter what he had, and she went to the kitchen and made some medication, she gave him one liter and told him to have half a cup, three times a day, one in the morning, other at midday and the other at night. He said he went home, told his wife to give him the medication. He took the first cup and felt so bad, he had to go to his bedroom and lie down. Woman, I think I am going to die now. I went there to get my death! And it was a girl that gave me the medication, maybe she gave me poison. The woman went to get a taxi, but after a time, he said, ha, if I have to die let me die, give me one more cup, he told his wife. Three days later he came to my home and told me that story, many times, and laughed, and said that he was cured of his illness. He came to get more medication.
- What did he have?
- He had a stomach ulcer.
- Did it really cure him?
- I really did. In Guarita, when I lived there, in Ronda Alta, the civil servants wrote me, that when I went there, I should take them lots of medication. And I took the medication. Have you ever been in Guarita?
- I went there to help organize the medical post.
- There is this servant here, a small woman, she had been married for six years and she hadn’t had a child, and one day she came looking for me. Now she has a boy.
- How did you treat her?
- I gave her a treatment.
- Do you always give the same treatment?
- Yes.
- And all of them get pregnant, or only some of them?
- All of them. She is very small, an Italian. You see how the Italians also believe in Indian medication? I went there, treated her and in no time she was pregnant.
***
- We are going to the Ligeiro, pretty soon, to work there.
- There are a lot of people there, God bless me, you will be tired. Where did you come from?
- From Curitiba... it's far, isn't it?
- Yes, far... my daughter went to... where did she go?
***
– Quer uma água?
– Não.
– Chimarrão, não toma?
– Eu tomo. Chimarrão, lá em casa, não me falta.
***
- I want to go to the hospital someday. I want to see those births, when they invent that.
- I’ll show you some photos. Do you want to see them?
- Yes I do. I don't have good eyesight, though.
- But look at this. She is sitting down, it's as if she were squatting down.
- I know.
- This is a bed in which she can lie down, if she wants to. It's dark, like your houses, which are dark.
- And there's another person there...
- That's me.
- Is it really? Yes, dressed in blue? It has to be like that?
- Yes.
- It is dark, the room.
- It is an Indian childbirth.
- Is it?
- Yes. I have shown this to other doctors.
- And what did they say?
- They have approved it.
- The easiest way is this. Who told you that it is the easiest way?
- Those are Indians from Paraguay. Have you ever heard about Paraguay?
- Yes, I have.
- They have their childbirths on their knees. Have you ever seen a kneeling childbirth?
- Yes, I have.
- Is it the same, or better?
- It's the same thing.
- But you put your knees on the floor...
- Yes. It's too low, it can hurt the child.
- Too low, isn't it? You have to put a hand here, under it.
- That's because she is not in a good position yet... when the pains get strong she will get into a good position.
***
- Look, lying down, how strange it is...
- Yes, that's horrible. The way you are doing it now, the women will not need to do these caesarians... She has her hands here? Where are her hands? She has to hold here. She has to have her hands between her legs, then, she holds her legs here, I will explain to you the way it is. She has to keep her legs steady.
- Then you don't have to grab the bed or anything.
- Sometimes she has to. This one, did she take long to have the baby?
- She took a while.
- Of course she did.
- How do you know that?
- Just from looking at her. I know, ha, ha! She took a while to have her baby.
***
- That's the Indian way, have you seen it? I am not so stupid anymore!
- And when they are ill, what do you do?
- We let them walk around, and just keep an eye on them.
- And you don't do any "fumentação"?
- No.
- The Indians have to "fumentar".
- And how do you do it?
- With oil, chicken fat...
- You boil it under?
- No, we warm it at the stove. When it is just warm, so that you can still put your hand in it, we put a little bit of it on the hand and spread it on. You have to straighten out the child, put it in the right position.
- We think the baby gets into the right position by itself.
- No, I help. The first thing that I do is to put the child into the right position.
- If you want to visit us to see, you can come. We can give you a place to stay and food to eat.
- If it's for the food, I can eat at home.
- Oh, you're kidding me... go see that room, what it's like. You have never seen something like that!
- Yes, I've seen it...
- A room like that? And white people doing it like that? They’re all white women, descendants of Poles and Italians. Have you ever made an Italian woman give birth squatting down?
- No.
- Well, I did. And I helped an Indian have a baby. There in Mangueirinha.
- I've done births in all the nations, but...
- ... and I didn't make the Indian woman lie down. I made her squat down. And I did those deliveries, with the women squatting down, of babies that were sitting down. Three of them.
- Three?!
- You just have to do it like that. They are born fine. And I had a case where the placenta got stuck inside. It didn't come out. That's what I was asking you, how do you do it, to get the placenta out.
- That's because the place is cold, that's why it happens.
- The floor is cold?
- No...
- The body?
- Yes. The child's place.
1 Placenta.
2 Lying down birth – started in 1738, with Mauriceau, doctor of the French queen. In Germany, until then, it was considered bad medical practice to make a woman lie down on the first birth.
3 Fetus in pelvic presentation.
4 Tetanus